Testimony of Miss Kate Alterman (9th floor worker)

Q - Margaret Schwartz was with you at this time?
A- At this time, yes, sir.
Q- Then where did you go?
A - Then I went to the toilet room, Margaret disappeared from me, and I wanted to go up Greene street side, but the whole door was in flames, so I went in hid myself in the toilet rooms and bent my face over the sink, and then ran to the Washington side elevator, but there was, a. big crowd and, I couldn't pass through there. I noticed some one, a whole crowd around the door and I saw the Bernstein, the manager's brother trying to open the door, and there was Margaret near him.
Bernstein tried the door, he couldn't open it and then Margaret began to open the door. I take her on one side I pushed her on the side and I said, "Wait, I will open that door." I tried, pulled the handle in and out, all ways--and I couldn't open it. She pushed me on the other side, got hold of the handle and then she tried. And then I saw her bending down on her knees, and her hair was loose, and the trail of her dress was a little far from her, and then a big smoke came and I couldn't see I just know it was Margaret, and I said, "Margaret," and she didn't reply. I left Margaret, I turned my head on the side, and I noticed the trail of her dress and the ends of her hair begin to burn. Then I ran in, in small dressing room that was on the Washington side, there was a big crowd and I went out from there, stood in the center of the room. Between the machines and between the examining tables, I noticed afterwards on the other side, near the Washington side windows, Bernstein, the manager's brother throwing around like a wildcat at the window, and he was chasing his head out of the window, and pull himself back. He wanted to jump, I suppose, but he was afraid. And then I saw the flames cover him. I noticed on the Greene street side someone else fell down on the floor and , the flames cover him. And then I stood in the center of the room, and I just turned my coat on the left side with the fur to my face, the lining on the outside, got hold of a bunch of dresses that was lying on the examining table not burned yet, covered my head and tried to run through the flames on the Greene street side. The whole door was a red curtain of fire. A young lady came and she began to pull me in the back of my dress and she wouldn't let me in. I kicked her with my foot and I don't know what became of her. I ran out thorough the Greene street side door, right through the flames on to the roof.
Q...When you were standing toward the middle of the floor had you a pocketbook with you?.
A...Yes, sir, my pocketbook began to burn already, but I pressed it to my heart to extinguish the fire.
Q...And you put the fire out on your pocketbook?
A...Yes, sir.

Cross-examination by Mr. Steuer

Q...Did you have a sister working in the place?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you come from Philadelphia?
A. I came about the 20th of November, the 18th or the 20th of November, I do not remember: the date.
Q. And you have been here ever since?
A No, sir, I left after the fire.
Q Oh, you mean that you came about the 18th or 20th of November before the fire?
A Yes, sir.
Q I mean when did you come here to testify?
A The day of the trial.
Q When was that?
A On two weeks ago Monday.
Q And you came from Philadelphia?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you have been here since that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were not put on the stand here until you are the last, is that the idea?
A I don't know whether I was kept to the last, or first, but I was not on the witness stand.
Q You know you have been kept for over two weeks from Philadelphia?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where have you been living?
A In the Bronx.
Q. And your home in Philadelphia?
A Yes, sir.
Q. With whom?
A With my parents, now.
Q And your parents reside there in Philadelphia and you have been you have been willing to go on the witness stand since you have been here, haven't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you have been down to court, have you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you went away from court each afternoon and came down next morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q Spent the day down here in one of the offices in the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before you came down here this last time, to come down every day for two weeks, when did you see anybody from the District Attorney's office before that?
A Saturday.
Q And you were down here on Saturday, too, were you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you go anywhere with Mr. Rubin and Mr. Bostwick?
A Yes, sir.
Q They took you up to the building, did they?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they went along?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they pointed out to you where the Washington Place door is?
A I had to point it out to them.
Q You were taken right over to the Washington Place door, weren't you?
A I took them to the Washington Place door.
Q They didn't know where, it was?
A I don't know whether they knew or not, but they asked me to show it to them.
Q Well they took you all over the floor, didn't they?
A I took them all over the floor.
Q You, took Mr. Bostwick and Mr. Rubin all over the floor?
A Yes, sir.
Q You have never gone there before in all the two weeks you were in New York, had you?
A No, sir.
Q. And how was the appointment made for Saturday?
A Mr. Rubin told me to come, he. wants to see me. He showed me the plan and asked me to show on the plan where I saw Margaret last; I couldn't show him very well on the plan for I picked it in my mind the place as if it were before the fire, and he couldn't make it out very well with me there, and he took me to the place and, he told me to show him exactly the place.
Q All that. you have told us about that was that she was right up against the door, isn't that so?
A She was right near the door.
Q_Well now, that was right alongside the Washington Place door?
A She was right, near the door with her hands at the knob.
Q With her hands at the knob?
A At the knob.
Q. But you couldn't tell him that before you went up to the loft?
A Well, I don't believe I told him - I think I told him, I am not sure, though for when I gave my statement first I was sick that time.
Q And so you did take it the same way as you are making it now?
A I'm made it the same way, just the same way.
Q Did you tell then that she was with her hand on the knob?
A I, don't remember exactly whether I told the knob or not, for it was nine months ago.
Q Did you ever have a sister that visited you at the place?
A I never did.
Q Have you got a sister at all?
A I have a sister, yes, sir.
Q How many?
A I have five sisters.
Q Does one of your sisters live in New York?
A No, sir, they never did.
Q Are you the only one that was working in New York?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now I want you to tell me your story over again, just as you told it before.
A What, kind of story do you mean?
Q-You told us before that you had gone to the dressing room, do you remember that?
A Yes, sir before I heard the cry of fire.
Q And then it was in the dressing room that you heard the cry of fire?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now tell us what you did when you heard the cry of fire.
A I went out form the dressing room, went to the Waverly side windows to look for fire escapes, I didn't find any and Margaret Schwartz was with me, afterwards she disappeared. I turned away to get to Greene Street side, but she disappeared, she disappeared from me. I went to the toilet rooms, I went out from the toilet rooms, bent my face over the sink, and then went to the Washington side to the door, trying to open the door, but there I saw Bernstein, the manager's brother, trying to open the door; but he couldn't; he left; and Margaret was there too, and she tried to open the door and she could not. I pushed her on a side. I tried to open the door, and I couldn't and then she pushed me on the side and she said, "I will open the door," and she tried to open the door. And then a big smoke came and Margaret Schwartz I saw bending down on her knees, her hair was loose and her dress was on the floor and little far from her and then she screamed at the top of her voice, "Open the door! Fire! I am lost, there is fire!" and I went away from Margaret. I left, stood in the middle of the room, went in the middle of the room, between the machines and examining tables, and then I went in I say Bernstein, the manager's brother, throwing around the windows, putting his head from the window - he wanted to jump, I suppose but he was afraid -he drawed himself back, and then I saw the flames cover him. And some other man on the Greene Street side, the flames covered him, too, and then I turned my coat on the wrong side and put it on my head with the fur to my face, the lining on the outside, and I got hold of a bunch of dresses and covered up the top of my head. I just got ready to go and somebody came and began and began to chase me back, pulled my dress back, and I kicked her with the foot and she disappeared. I tried to make my escape. I had a pocketbook with me, and that pocketbook began to burn, I pressed it to my heart to extinguish the fire, and I made my escape right through the flames - the whole door was a flame right to the roof.
Q It looked like a wall of flame?
A Like a red curtain.
Q Now, there was something in that you left out, I think, Miss Alterman. When Bernstein was jumping around, do you remember what that was like? Like a wildcat, wasn't it?
A Like a wildcat.
Q You left that out the second time. How long have you lived in Philadelphia?
Mr. Bostwick: There being no question predicated upon that I move that that statement be stricken out.
The Court: Yes, I will strike it out.
Mr. Steuer: I except.

(Mr. Steuer continues cross-examination)

Q You did leave that out didn't you, just now, when you told us about Bernstein, that he jumped around like a wildcat?
A Well, I didn't imagine whether a wildcat or a wild dog; I just speak to imagine just exactly.
Q How long have you lived Philadelphia?
A Before?
Q Yes?
A For nine years.
Q Was that the only time you were in New York?
A Yes, sir.
Q Altogether you spent in New York how many months?
A Four months.
Q And during those four months were you working in this same place?
A Yes sir.
Q Was that the only time you worked in New York?
A The only time, yes, sir.
Q When you were at work where did you sit?
A At work?--on the Washington side, the third table.
Q You mean the third table from the Washington Place side?
A Yes, sir.
Q And about where on that table did you sit?
A About where? Well how many machines from the end?
Q Yes.
A I couldn't tell you exactly.
Q I don't want you to be exact. .Just give us an idea. so that we can picture it here.
A Well about six machines probably or five machines. I don't know exactly.
Q From the Washington Place window?
A No, sir, from the other side. From the Washington Place side was about seven or eight machines.
Q Well, at any rate, that would put you pretty near the middle of the table, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir pretty near, crossing the door.
Q Now you heard the signal or bell for the shutting off of the power, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you got up and left your table, is that it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And was it at that time that you went to the dressing room?
A Yes, sir .
Q That was the only time you went to the dressing room, was it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And of course I am speaking of that afternoon, I meant that afternoon.
A Of that day, yes, sir.
Q Now could you tell us again what you did after that time?
A After going out from the dressing room?
Q Yes.'
A I went out to the Waverly. side windows to look for fire escapes. Margaret Schwartz was with me, and then Margaret disappeared. I called her to Greene street, she disappeared and I went into the toilet room, went out, bent my face over the sink, and then I wanted to go to the Washington side, to the elevator. I saw, there a big crowd, I couldn't push through. I saw around the Washington side door a whole lot of people standing, I pushed through and there I saw Bernstein, the manager's brother, trying to open the door; he could not and he left Margaret Schwartz was there, she tried to open the door and she could not. I pushed Margaret on the side, and tried to open the door, I could not. And then Margaret pushed me on the side, and she tried to open the door. But smoke came and Margaret bent on her knees; her trail was a little far from her, just spreading on, the floor far from her and her hair was loose, and I saw the ends of her dress and-- the ends of her hair began to burn. I went into the small dressing room, there was a big crowd, and I tried - I stood there and I went out right away, pushed through and went out and then I stood in the center of the room.between the examining tables and the machines. Then I noticed the Washington side windows--Bernstein, the manager's brother, trying to jump from the window, he stuck his head out - he wanted to jump, I suppose but he was afraid. Then he would draw himself back, then I saw the flames cover him. He. jumped liked a wildcat on the walls. And then I stood, took my coat, turning the fur to my head, the lining to the outside got a hold of a bunch of dresses that was lying on the table and covered my head, and I just wanted to go and some lady came she began to pull the back of my dress; I kicked her with the foot and I don't where she got to. And then I had a purse with me and that purse began to burn, I pressed it to my heart to extinguish the fire. The whole door was a flame, it was a red curtain of fire, and I went right on the roof.
Q You never spoke to anybody about what you were going to tell us when you came here, did you?
A No, sir.
Q You have got father and a mother and four sisters?
A Five sisters. I have a father, I have no mother - I have a stepmother.
Q And you never spoke to anybody else about it?
A No, sir.
Q They never asked you about it?
A They asked me and I told her once, and then they stopped me; they didn't want me to talk anymore about it.
Q You told them once and then they stopped you and you never talked about it again?
A I never did.
Q And you didn't study the words in which you would tell it?
A No, sir.
Q Do you remember that you got out to the center of the floor - do you remember?
A I remember I got through the Greene Street side door.
Q You remember that you did get to the center of the floor, don't you?
A Between the machines and the examining tables, in the center.
Q Now tell us from there what you did; start at that point now instead of at the beginning.
A In the beginning I saw Bernstein on the Washington side, Bernstein's brother, through around like a wildcat; he wanted to jump, I suppose but he was afraid. And then he drawed himself back and the flames covered him up. And I took my coat, turned it on the wrong side with the fur to my face end .the lining on the outside, got hold of a bunch of dresses from the examining table, covered up my head, and I wanted to run. And then a lady came she began to pull my dress back, she wanted to pull me back, and I kicked her with my foot - I don't know where she got to and I ran out through the Greene street side door, which was in flames; it was a red curtain of fire on that door to the roof.
Q You never studied those words did you?
A No, sir.

Re-direct examination by Mr. Bostwick

Q Now, Miss Alterman, each time that you have answered Mr. Steuer's question you have tried to repeat it in the same language that you first told it here in court, have you not?
A Yes, sir..
Q And you remember every detail of that story as well today as if it had happened yesterday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q And it is all true?
A Yes, sir.

Re-cross examination by Mr. Steuer

Q Can you tell that story in any other words than those you have told it in?
A In any other words? I remember it this way, just exactly how it was done.
Q Will you please answer my question? Could you tell it in any other words than the words you have told it in here three and half times.
A Probably I can....

Questioned by Mr. Bostwick

Q As a matter of fact you did on Saturday, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as a matter of fact you did in that statement use different words than you have stated now?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you could repeat over whatever you told me on Saturday, in those other words?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you could repeat over your statement that you made, in other words?
A Yes; sir.
Q And the reason you have repeated

Mr. Steuer: You make a mighty good question but please answer one.
The Court: I am waiting to hear objections.
Mr. Bostwick: I withdraw the question.
Q Will you state to the jury why you tried to repeat the last time what you told Mr. Steuer in the same language-that you used the time you told Mr. Steuer?
A Because he asked me the very same story over and over.
Q And did you think you have to tell it in the same words?
A No, I didn't think. I just told the way he asked me to say it over and over, and I told him in the same words.
Q I have not spoken to you since recess, have I?
A No, sir.
Q Not a word.
A No, sir.

By Mr. Steuer:

Q You say you can tell the jury the same words you used in your written statement?
A Probably I can. My written statement was nine months ago.
Mr. Bostwick: I offer the statement to the jury.
Q Tell us the words in the statement, please now.
The Court: Answer the question.
A Shall I tell you just as in the statement?
Q Yes, the words in the statement.
A Well, I gave a very long statement, I believe, to Mr. Rubin.
Q Now, start with the words in the statement, please, and not an explanation, Miss, if you can. Tell us just how you started the statement, and then give us the words that are in the statement?
A Well, it would be 4.45 on Saturday, I think that I started the beginning of the statement, I can't do it to you.
Q Mr. Bostwick asked you before whether you could tell again in the same words of the statement and you said "yes." Now I suppose you did not understand the question that way, did you?
A No, sir, I did not.